Men’s Journal Everyday Warrior Podcast Episode 51: Matt Mayberry

In the latest episode, we spoke to the former NFL linebacker about leadership and its effect on culture.

Men’s Journal’s Everyday Warrior With Mike Sarraille is a podcast that inspires individuals to live more fulfilling lives by having conversations with disrupters and high performers from all walks of life. In episode 51, we welcome Matt Mayberry, former NCAA and NFL linebacker. Since leaving football, Mayberry has become an internationally acclaimed keynote speaker, management consultant, and author. His most recent book, Culture Is the Way: How Leaders at Every Level Build an Organization for Speed, Impact, and Excellence, quickly made its way on the Wall Street Journal Best-Sellers List. In this episode, Mayberry sits down with Mike to discuss leadership and its effect on culture.

Listen to the full episode above (scroll down for the transcript) and see more from this series below.

This interview has not been edited for length or clarity.

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Michael Sarraille 00:11

Welcome, everyone to the Men's Journal Everyday Warrior Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Sarraille. Today I've got Matt Mayberry, who has a great book that just came out on February 1, Culture Is the Way. Having listened to me, leadership and culture are my passion. So I have no doubt this conversation will take on a life of its own. But first off, Matt, thank you for for joining us. And you said you're hailing from Chicago, right?

Matt Mayberry 00:37

Yep. Thanks for having me. 

Michael Sarraille 00:39

Chicago is your hometown now?

Matt Mayberry 00:43

Correct. It is, yes. That's where I'm calling in today from.

Michael Sarraille 00:46

But you grew up only 30 minutes outside the city in Darien, Illinois. Am I pronouncing that right, Darien?  

Matt Mayberry 00:53

Yeah, I grew up in Darien, Illinois, which is probably about 30 to 35 minutes outside of downtown Chicago. So that's where my parents, you know, raised me and my brother, and that's where I kind of grew up and everything I know, that really fell in love with the city, we came into the city every single weekend, almost, when I really from six years old and on. So you know, I think growing up in the suburbs of Chicago and having that direct access to the city really made me fall in love with my city now.

Michael Sarraille 01:18

So you grew up in an interesting area to young with the Chicago Bulls, which have you seen the documentary, The Last Dance?

Matt Mayberry 01:28

Of course, how could I miss it? Of course, that was interesting.

Michael Sarraille 01:31

Because you know, you know, one, I'm 10 years older than you but so you know, I'm in my teenage years watching the bowls, they dominated the 90s. Of course, you don't see what's going on behind the scene. No one's gonna deny that that is was one of the most high performing teams in the history of the NBA. But what I found just interesting about the last answer is you got all the dirty details of, of what was going on behind the scenes, and ultimately, what the culture really, really, really was. Was that a eye opener for you especially hailing from the Chicago area?

Matt Mayberry 02:04

You know, it was but it also wasn't I think, growing up in, you know, Chicago and suburb. You know, for me, I was I've heard all those stories of Michael Jordan, you know, as far as like his commitment to excellence and how much he wanted to be great. You know, and I think that, you know, that I faced it, I think it puts a lot of people off. I think from the flip side, you can still be a great teammate, me and you we weren't in that locker room. So we don't know exactly what kind of a teammate he was. But, you know, I think he definitely rubbed some people the wrong way. And it was very evidently clear in that documentary.

Michael Sarraille 02:32

But you could say the same for height, you know, people that hold themselves to a high standard, you're naturally going to piss off people who just want some sort of semblance of balance.

Matt Mayberry 02:42

Yeah, I think Kobe Bryant, who I actually grew up, you know, speaking of the Chicago, Bert bulls, and growing up in Chicago, I actually grew up a Lakers fan. You know, that really pisses a lot of people off, you know, but I just fell in love with Kobe Bryant. I love the Los Angeles Lakers. But he was the same way. I think he actually has a quote where it says like, I'm allergic I can't stand being around lazy people, people who are not committed to greatness. So you definitely see the similarity in there between Kobe and MJ.

Michael Sarraille 03:08

Yeah, you do. And we all know that, you know, the proverb. You know, iron sharpens iron. so one man sharpens another, you tend to identify or try to surround yourself with people that are going to sharpen your, your sword. So that's Matt. First off, I get to ask, it always seems, you know, in terms of MLB, who's your team in Chicago? Or is it somewhere else?

Matt Mayberry 03:30

Cubs, you know, but again, if any, if any Chicago wins, who know me are listening to this, they're gonna crack jokes and say that I was a traitor, you know, because I actually grew up a White Sox fan. Probably when I was about 1516. I converted over to being a Cubs fan because my grandfather, someone that I was closest to, really throughout my entire life. He was a devoted diehard Cubs fan. So that's why I made that conversion back and back then.

Michael Sarraille 03:53

Dude, it almost seems like there's a line on a map and Chicago if you if you're on this side, the west side, you're I think it's west side. You're a Cubs fan. If you're on the East side. You're a White Sox fan. How does that work? Northside north, I know.

Matt Mayberry 04:06

It's very interesting, because you would think that you know, hey, you just want to you know, both Chicago teams to do well, but it's quite the opposite. You know, if you're a Sox fan, you hate the Cubs and you can't stand you know, you want them to lose at all costs. If you're a Cubs fan, you hate the frickin White Sox and you want them to lose at all costs. So I mean, you know, I never understood the dynamic and I think me growing up a White Sox fan and and converting to a Cubs fan. I don't have that hatred towards the White Sox like most Chicagoans do, but it's something that's still confuses me to this day. I never understood the hatred between both teams.

Michael Sarraille 04:38

People have nothing I hate to say it sometimes people have nothing else in their lives that that that becomes the all encompassing and and you know, but it goes to show mindset of like, you've got to hate someone else or because you have so so little in somebody else has so much more you've got to hate them which is not the case which we know true. So Ben, you grew up agree playing sports in high school really excelled in football. You were playing both offense defense, and then eventually, in something I think you read you had 19 offers, but you ultimately

Matt Mayberry 05:11

offers. I did you know what kind of take you back to A? Yeah. So I mean, Georgia, Georgia offered me, you know, we just went back to back championships Tennessee, Maryland, Northwestern, I mean, some of the biggest football programs in the country. But I think to give some context for, you know, all your listeners here, I think, you know, when you when you look at my story, and I think my first book, which came out in 2016, and winning plays, you know, I was very vulnerable in that during kind of my backstory, because when you look at kind of the accolades from an athletic perspective, and, you know, where I grew up in the Chicago suburbs had two wonderful parents still married to this day. You know, they, they're very surprised when I, you know, as a full blown out drug addict, you know, three near death experiences done every single drug you could possibly think of besides heroin. If I wasn't terrified of needles, I probably would have done that, too. And the reason why I say that is because I think that it's very easy when you look at someone's backstory, and I'm sure even yours, you know, everyone thinks that the journey was easy, it was easy going to kind of get to where you got to, but for me, it was a lot of hard, hard learned lessons that you know, almost near death at one point, they didn't think that they were going to bring me back to life. So that was kind of my backstory. So, you know, before we get in that athletic conversation, I just wanted to kind of, you know, give that context for your listeners, because it really sheds light into really the rest of the journeys, which I'm sure we'll get into later on.

Michael Sarraille 06:27

So I can we, you know, I just had Matt Higgins on Shark Tank, highly successful business leader rags to riches story, in your story sounds a little similar to mine, not not rags to riches, compared to guys like Matt or the Bernie Marcus's the world that grew up with very little, we're lucky if they had food on the table. But I appreciate you being vulnerable. And I think there's no more masculine trait than than vulnerability. What age did the drug problem start?

Matt Mayberry 06:54

I mean, it really it really started at 13. But but for me, I would say the real intensity of that really was 1516. Particularly like, right when I was a freshman in high school, you know, and for me, my best work was growing up was actually baseball, I was projected to get drafted straight to the major league skip College, go straight to the major leagues. But I got kicked off my baseball team because I got caught stealing one of my teammates wallets, while the rest of my teammates were to practice one afternoon, I stayed behind, because I saw the cash that was in that wallet, and thought about all the drugs that I can buy. You know, so that was my life might get, you know, really started at 13 years old, you know, for everybody that has a son or a daughter, can you imagine is which this happened to my parents, your high school guidance counselor calls you and your spouse in and looks you directly in the eye and says that your son or your daughter will be dead, before they ever get the opportunity to turn, you know, experience their 18th birthday? You know, because that was the life that I was living at that point.

Michael Sarraille 07:48

That's insane. It was it? Was that a product of who you're hanging around? There's always there's always guilt. Absolutely. When you're looking at you know,

Matt Mayberry 07:57

100% No, I always say work you know, wherever I am, you know, in front of a group of 100 fortune 100 CEOs or universities athletic team always say you are who you hang out with, show me your five closest associates. And I will show you where the future's headed, you know, and I believe that to the core of me, because I live that, you know, I live that where I was hanging around with the, you know, the drug addicts, the gangbangers the people that were committing robberies, I mean, the worst of the worst. Like, those are the people that I was running with and going with. So I adapted their habits, their mindsets and their mentality of how they live life. And, you know, fortunately for me, you know, that wasn't the rest of my destiny. But for a few short years there, I really, really lived the hard life and put my mother and father through so much, you know, bull crap

Michael Sarraille 08:40

was so what action did your parents take to sort of break this this this addiction?

Matt Mayberry 08:46

I mean, my parents really did everything they could, but nothing really worked. I mean, I broke my father's ribs on multiple occasions when he would confront me about why I'm coming home past curfew, my own mother, the woman that I love more than anything you see me do cocaine five times a throne, two eyes, so my parents did everything they possibly could. But I was just I was so out of control. So really what the turning point was my was my high school said, Hey, Matt, no more suspensions, no more detentions. We're gonna kick you out of this frickin High School expel you, if you do not go to a drug treatment facility for one month. And I was a gifted athlete. I know, I know, 100% to my core, that I had more opportunities and chances probably than the next person because of my athletic ability. But that was the turning point for me, you know, of almost getting expelled. And like, I didn't actually go to the facility. To get sober and work on myself. I went because my grandfather, the one that I told you, I was very close with a deep diehard Cubs fan. He offered me $500 If I was to go to that drug gym facility and start the process of working on myself. So can you guess what the drug addict wanted to do with $500? Exactly. I mean, that's the only thing I was thinking about. So I didn't take ownership of wind to get sober and better my life. And, you know, fortunately for me, long story short, two weeks and that judgment facility is when my life changed. When this was the longest, I've been sober for quite some years, and I had a heart to heart with my father. And it just, it rocked my entire world. And I realized that this is not this cannot be the rest of Matt. May Barry's journey. So it was that moment that epiphany that really changed my life. That moment with my father.

Michael Sarraille 10:17

That's a nut. I'm glad to hear that in as a parent. Yeah, I knew and I put my parents through hell. And yes, were there some drugs in high school there were. And did I get caught? Yeah. I'm glad you broke that. I'm glad. Yeah, it makes your story that much more inspirational. And in fact, you know, I talked about, there's a guy who they wrote a book about named Adam round. I didn't know Adam, all that well, but I knew knew Adam and I was there, then it died, but came from Arkansas, had struggled with drugs and eventually joined the Navy. But it was a long, long fought battle with drugs before he he turned his life around and eventually became a Navy SEAL. So even even more inspiring. So that happened, what did they sent you did the one month treatment facility your junior senior year? Yeah.

Matt Mayberry 11:06

This is my this is all so this. Everything that I just shared with you is from my freshman and sophomore year, a whole you know, so it was I really didn't start turning around my Yeah, I mean, it was it was always very early on in my Yeah. You know, high school, you know, journey. This is I mean, it was that bad. That that bad, right from the very good go.

Michael Sarraille 11:26

So you eventually decide football over baseball? Or were you getting recruited for both win, win talk? Well, just

Matt Mayberry 11:35

so I was getting recruited for both. But you know, obviously, as I mentioned there, baseball was my best sport. You know, I was good at football. But it wasn't my first love. I didn't naturally love the game. Like I love baseball. But as I mentioned, I got kicked off my baseball team. So I didn't have baseball. And I don't know what the coach would have let me back on the team. You know, if I if I showed that I was sober. And I was dedicated myself and recommitted myself to be a great teammate and do what I had to do to be a great role model. But, you know, for me, I just ran with football after that, that vulnerable moment that I had with my father. You know, that moment in time epiphany that really altered the course of my life, when he just said that him and my mother can't do this anymore, you know, just just they just can't do it anymore. And I realized in the back of my head that you know, football is all I got now, you know, football is all I got, you know, because I was a DNF student at this point. I skipped class didn't apply myself. You know, so football was really my it was my outlet. You know, it was my way to kind of really go create that bigger future for Matt Mayberry. So I'll never forget, you know, when you mentioned the schools that offered me a scholarship after that moment with my father, I went back into my room. Usually most motivational books laying around the house, just hoping one day is broken, some would flip through 10 or 15 pages, and get a spark of inspiration. And that day happened. When there was a book on goal setting next to my bedside, I flipped it open, and it was talking about the power of vision and writing down your goals. I wrote on a piece of a no card, actually three by five note card that I will receive a division one college scholarship by this time next year, not knowing how it was going to happen. You know, all this self doubts start to creep in my mind. And I didn't know how it was going to play out. But I just had this burning desire in my gut might that, you know, I have to change my life. And it starts with getting a scholarship for football.

Michael Sarraille 13:15

I'd say it's not a bad goal to have. And of course, you know, that leads to an education as well. You eventually you name some top programs, but you eventually and not that Indiana University is not a top program. But it sounds like you chose not to top program. But it sounds like you chose a culture and potentially a specific leader over the top programs just sort of explained to me. Yeah. So the decision making process on that woman?

Matt Mayberry 13:40

Yes. So what happened? I mean, you know, you're probably familiar with like, you know, the recruitment process of, you know, when you coaches come visit you and you go to the university and go on an official visit, and for me, you know, I did have some pretty big time offers from some of the top football programs. You know, for me, though, what really helped me fall in love with Indiana, I'll never forget with everything that I've been through a lot of it was self destructive. You know, but with everything I've been through and Terry Heppner, that man I'm talking about he was the head coach at Indiana at the time. I'll never forget sitting in his office one day, during an official visit, my parents were there as well. He looked me directly in the eyes and said, Matt, if you come to Indiana, you're gonna get a world class education, and you will get an opportunity to play in the NFL. But more importantly, I'm going to help you grow and evolve as a young man, that one day you were going to be more successful outside of the game of football than you ever will be playing the game of football. And I don't know what it was about that moment in that conversation. You know, call it luck, whatever you want to call it, but I just knew right then and there at this was the man that genuinely cared about me. And I wasn't just a piece of meat that was going to make that university multi millions of dollars because of the sport that I was good at. You know, this is a guy who genuinely cared for me who wanted to see me succeed not just in football, but in the game of life. And I'll never forget on the drive back home to you know, Illinois From that official visit at Indiana, I told my parents that, you know, this is where I'm gonna go. And I shocked everybody when I when I chose Indiana over Georgia and Tennessee some of those great programs. But for me it was so it's solely came down to that man, Terry Heppner.

Michael Sarraille 15:14

That's, that's it, that's the power of an amazing leader is that it draws in the talent. Absolutely. They want. Would you still consider Terry as a mentor? In a lot of ways?

Matt Mayberry 15:26

100 I mean, 100% I mean, everything I know about leadership and culture directly comes from that man, you know, I wrote about him in my first book, when he plays. And then even in my new book, culture is the way you know, I used that guideline of kind of that's, that was my first discovery of the power of culture. You know, I'm sure we'll get into a little bit more. But you know, a lot of people think of culture is fluff and, you know, something that's soft, and there's no application to business performance and high performance. And, to me, that's a bunch of BS, you know, because I learned firsthand from that man, what culture truly is, it's really behavior at scale. You know, it's the expectations from that program for that company. It's, it's the direction, what we deeply believe in the purpose of what we're doing. And I learned that front and center when I went to Indiana and saw that man of how he turned around, started to turn around a struggling program. That was one game before I got there. And then one year later, we're going to a bowl game played Oklahoma State and you know, inside bowl in Tempe, Arizona, you know, and it was, it wasn't talent, you know, because in one short year, you're not going to get five star recruits, four star recruits, you're not going to, you're not getting more money from the school and boosters. It was the foundational core, the belief that he built in that program, and really our identity of what's in store for our future. So absolutely, I identify Terry Heppner is one of the really the biggest mentors in my life as far as leadership and culture.

Michael Sarraille 16:45

And we all need them in Matt, I'm smiling for one reason, when I go and talk to companies. And there's a slide that says leadership and culture and there's a hidden word that then appears to say, hey, it really comes down to one thing in this one thing, behavior, leadership and culture come down, it comes down to behavior. Culture is not the espoused values you put on the wall, which we often see like excellence, community Integrity, service, those those are Meaningless, meaningless words on a wall. But for those listening, and I know Matt knows this, there's a famous business management consultant. His name was Peter Drucker, he had a famous line that says, culture eats strategy for breakfast. Well, I sort of modified it culture may eat strategy for breakfast, but behavior eats culture for lunch, and ultimately met one of my beliefs. And I want to, I want to I want to hear how do you break this down, because there is a process to create a new culture, what I think is that there's no MBA program in the world. And I, I opted to go to an MBA as I retired out of the SEAL teams, because I knew very little about accounting, finance, you could say my financial acumen was low. But there was no one equipped at, and it was a tough program, to speak on leadership and culture. I mean, they turn out very good business practitioners. I'm not going to debate that good accountants, good finance, investment bankers, whatever it may be marketers, but very few programs are ill equipped to teach leadership and culture. So I'd love to hear it sounds like Terry, Terry excited, what has become, as he said he was gonna create players that are more successful outside the game. It sounds like he ignited this passion for leadership and culture. And yeah. How do you break down culture, man, because there's a lot of businesses just don't know how to do it?

Matt Mayberry 18:35

You know, that's a great, fantastic question, Mike. You know, you know, before we even dig into that, I would like to just say that, you know, I think, you know, I think the military, for example, I think the military and football, particularly, I mean, you can classify maybe all sports, but I think that, you know, probably part of, you know, one of the main reasons why me and you have been able to kind of do this work at a high level from leadership and culture is because of the lessons that we learned, you know, doing what we do, and, and seeing the effect of that the power in that, because I remember when I first started, you know, doing this work, you know, roughly 1011 12 years ago, you know, was that I don't have an MBA, right? I didn't, you know, I wasn't at Deloitte, I wasn't at McKinsey, you know, I think there's so much value, you know, information from from going to one of those places and having that education, you know, but I think actually living on the frontlines of being an athlete or being in the military, Navy Seal, whatever that may be. I mean, that's just for me, that's given me all the ammo to actually go out in the real world, work with some of the biggest companies in the world and transform their cultures, and actually truly change behavior at scale. You know, because when you talk about culture, I mean, that is it. You said its behavior, you know, and that's really the core of it. I mean, everything I do in the book is talking about behavior. It can sound good, right? It doesn't matter what's coming out of your mouth, but are we changing human behavior? You know, so the very first thing that I start with from, you know, culture perspective, is really going to the leadership teams and their mentality first has to be in the right place. So what I mean by that is because you're never going to change or transform culture, and you know this better than anybody, unless the leaders first understand a The Power of Culture, and then be, you know, they're willing to kind of lead that charge, they're willing to go first. That's what leadership is, it's a transfer of influence and impact, and you have to go first. You know, and I think what we've seen 1015 years ago was the, you know, the popular command and control type of leader, which now, that's completely shifted and changed. I think COVID-19 accelerated some of that, you know, but it truly is what I learned from Terry Hatton or servant leadership. Outside of that it's leading first it's going, it's not about so much what's coming out of your mouth, it's what are you doing every single day? What are your what is your daily behavior, showing the rest of the company, the rest of the organization. So for me, that's the very first thing that you got to, you got to really nail that down. Because, you know, you can talk about strategies and high complex, you know, overviews and plans and implementation, you know, programs. But at the end of the day, if the leaders of a company don't first understand what that is, and the importance of it, you already have your back up against the wall, and you're going to be massively challenged as you continue on with that journey.

Michael Sarraille 21:11

It is so vitally true. You know, there was a 1987 Don't do drugs commercial, where a father walks into a bedroom, the sons on the bed, he's got these, these headphones on, and he's got a cigar. The father has a cigar box in the in his hands. And inside his marijuana, he looks at the sun and says, where'd you learn to do this son was caught, son dodges a question father asked again. And the kid finally looks at his father. And it says, I learned from watching you, I learned it from watching you dad. And the commercial goes to black and it says don't do drugs. We're going with that is leadership set the tone. And if you want to call it behavioral modeling, or observational learning, it's no different than leadership is no different than parenting. If you say you're going to do something, you better live those values. Do as I say, not as I do. As the world becomes more intelligent is totally a recipe for disaster, and you will lose respect. But you are right. And what we've seen is that a lot of companies that are these talent magnets, maybe because they have the best technology, but they become a revolving door for talent. Because the culture sucks, right? Right. You know? Is it a, a lot of companies to I've seen, they can't tell you who they are? Do you have a process there? Does that start start by, you know, before you even get the leaders to buy in and to act a certain way to demonstrate the behaviors they want their people to emulate? Is there a little bit of identification or definition of the culture?

Matt Mayberry 22:47

Absolutely, you know, one of the very first thing so if you look at most companies, Mike, and I mean, everyone knows this, every company has a mission statement, vision statement, it's on the website, etc. But then when you dig a little bit deeper, and you ask a company, well, what is your culture? You know, if you if you find 20 employees, let's say that work all at the same company, let's say you're at a conference and 20 employees from the same organization around the table, and you ask that group of 20 employees, what is your culture at XYZ company, I guarantee you nine times out of 10, you're gonna get 20 different responses. And to me, that's a tragedy. You know, to me, that's that it's tragic, to me, it's, it's a lack of alignment, it's a lack of clear understanding of what we stand for internally, because let's face it, until you fully understand who you are internally, you can't go out externally into the marketplace and dominate and do what you got to do. You know, you may have something something says it's not to say that if you don't have that definite, you know, defined culture or internal organization, that you're not going to be successful. That's not what I'm saying. But I think to build a long and sustainable culture that impacts the business and the people within that organization, you have to define the culture and, and how I look at this, you know, in the book, I lay out the process for doing that. But I use the term CPS, which is a cultural purpose statement. And if you look at again, using the example of football coaches, you know, football coaches, I think, are some of the best at doing this. For example, my coach now, the coach at Indiana University, Tom Allen, he uses the you know, the purpose which is the backbone of that program, which is Leo, which stands for love each other is the foundation and if we love each other as men, if we love each other so much, we are not we're going to hold each other accountable to not be average. You know, and PJ fleck is at University of Minnesota, rolled the boat, their whole culture has some, you know, identify with World vote, Nick Saban at Alabama. It's focused on the process, everything that organization is built on, is not about winning championships. It's focused on the process. Microsoft is an example in the corporate world. Yeah, words grow. It's the growth mindset. You know, so what am I getting at is that every great organization has a very clearly clearly defined culture. So I use that terms of hey, it's great to have the mission statement of who you are with your customers and out in the marketplace, but we also have to identify who are we internally as an organization, what is our culture, and I use the term, you know, the cultural purpose statement, as I mentioned, you know, one of the ways of doing that is a mantra, you know, it can be a statement, you know, one organization that I kind of feature all throughout the book and share their process of shifting and changing their culture dramatically is, you know, their cultural purpose statement is get better today together, you know, so everything they do operationally, strategically, you know, in the in the market, is revolved around, get better today together, that we're going to have our strategy, we're going to have our goals, our KPIs, we're going to do what we got to do. But if we just get better for this particular day, together as a team, we're going to execute everything that we've got to do. Now from there, there's other avenues I'm sure we'll get into of the, you know, executing that, but you have to define that the culture, you know, that's number one, it's the first step in my five step process. And quite frankly, it's really what the best organizations do better than everybody else's, they have a clearly defined culture.

Michael Sarraille 25:58

If one there seems like there's a lot of fluff, people just throw some words on the wall, they they sound great, they use words like flawless execution. I'm gonna tell you right now, I've never seen flawless execution in any profession, or any industry. It's an illusion. Now, it's something to aspire to put, if you ever came and watched us do a mission in a real world setting in a combat zone, I could, I could flip on the little circus music that do the little do, we still want, we still achieve the the mission or the desired end state, but it was never flawless. And there was always room for improvement, right? In trying to get companies away from this, this this fluff. And getting I love this cultural purpose statement, get to the crux, in a very simple way, is beautiful, you know, the SEAL teams, which were created in the 60s been around for 40 plus years at this point, but they didn't develop a code a creed, until 2004. And now you read the creed. It is beautiful. It is a beautifully written creed. It embodies everything you'd want, as a culture in what you'd want your people to strive for. But it's also five paragraphs long. And very few people memorize five paragraphs. And so I think they missed the mark there. But you know, here's my opinion. Let me let me give you this in a legal question. I think the reason the military and sports do this so well is because they actually take the time to indoctrinate, I know sometimes indoctrinate is, is an aggressive word maybe assimilate, or better define, understand, and then assimilate to the culture or quickly move move towards the door. But the military has three months to do it. Whether it's boot camp, or OCS, I mean, what that is, is basically it's cementing behaviors, here's who we are, right? This is the values we hold dear, these are the behaviors associated with those values. And those those behaviors lead to these outcomes. And you learn about that organization, what's gonna fly, what's not. And at the end of the three months, you're either prepared to go to the fleet, as we say, or you're gonna have a rough road for the next four years, then eventually out the door, if not sooner. Sports does the same thing for their their freshmen for their new professional athletes. In your opinion, what companies have you seen that that done? Well, rather than getting them right into the seat to do their job or out in the field, that actually have an onboarding process that explains all this? Have you seen this done? Well, in the private sector?

Matt Mayberry 28:26

You know, it's funny, you asked that, because, you know, it's probably a one of the most popular questions I receive be. My response is always yes, but I think that it's very, it's also very scattered. And what I mean by that is, there's some organizations that are very world class that maybe three or four things that they do, but then it's also very different when you especially going into larger organizations, 100,000 200,000 people, you know, it's very siloed in their, you know, they're gonna have best in practice and world class in this particular, you know, systematic approach to what they do. But it's very rare, I think, to find an organization that really does everything from recruitment to a retention to a great onboarding process to a very clearly defined culture and behaviors associated with those values and leadership development program that transfers over to on the job impact. But yeah, there are, you know, Microsoft is a great example. You know, I've been very fortunate to work with the latter organization that do a phenomenal job, Southern Glazer's Wine and Spirits, one of those and direct Federal Credit Union and other you know, Autodesk is a great company that really is world class in a lot of those areas. So, you know, they're definitely out there. But Mike is, as you just said, you know, I think that the military in sports and no way shape or form might comparing this, you know, sports to military military life. Oh, no,

Michael Sarraille 29:37

I think both.

Matt Mayberry 29:41

Both of those are, you know, especially in sports, right? The talent, everyone's talented, you get to the NFL, even big time college football, everyone has the talent. It's not about that, you know, it's about how do we get men from all different walks of life, rowing the boat in the same direction, marching toward our common vision, you know, when it comes down to that define culture behaviors, Um, you know, and, and really articulating that and spelling that out. And then the leaders living that role modeling that day in and day out living that breathing that eating that sleeping on that, you know, and that when you see that transfer over in the workplace, I mean, give you a perfect example, I think that the best organizations that are in the best, or by either former high school or college or even professional athletes, you know, because they had that DNA ingrained in them. It's not to say that, you know, some of the NBA and, you know, Harvard grads are not great leaders, because that's, I mean, some of the greatest leaders ever came from those, you know, world class institutions. But I think that you do see the similarity there between the military and sports as far as the leaders that go out there, and now they're the CEO, they run that company, because they have that ingrained in their DNA, they know the importance of it.

Michael Sarraille 30:48

You know, I was speaking with Dave Perry, who, who played football at the University of Idaho, same thing, CEO of Accelerate 360, highly successful company, portfolio company. But I mean, this is the same reason that enterprise hires a lot of, you know, NCAA athletes, it's because they don't have to train the team oriented aspect into it, quite frankly. But if you asked me, you know, where I want to say, I did well, in the military, that's for others to decide. I tried to live my values. Did I always live them? No. But I think the reason I assimilated into the military background so quickly, was because I played a lot of sports in high school, and I loved it, I identified with the team more than I identified, identified with WWE more than identified with me. But the private sector in the civil in US society holds some, some different values, you know, in sports, there has to be conformity, there has to be conformity in the civilian world, there is more of a precedence on individuality. But what are the let me let me let me reverse engineer this question. What are the impacts if you don't get the cultural piece? Right? What are the most tragic companies you've ever seen?

Matt Mayberry 32:01

I think Boeing is a great example. Right? I mean, when you look at like, you know, the, Boeing is a great example where, you know, for so long they were known for to be world class, you know, the safest airplanes in the entire world. And then obviously, that crashed, you know, I think there were two separate crashes that happened long ago, you know, it came to find out that the executives knew about the problem. They didn't, you know, tell the information or delay the rollout of that they literally went through with the problem when they even knew, you know, all of the downfall, you know, and so what that saying is that they went away from what made them world class in the beginning, you know, because they were thinking profit first. And so the moment you start thinking in terms of profits, over people and culture, you're already doomed. And what's that? What's at stake for neglecting culture? Everything? Absolutely everything. You know, in your world, it's life or death. In my world, it's yes, wins and losses, but it's also careers. It's also it could be injury, you know, so I mean, you're looking at from from so many different angles, but in the corporate world, the difference is this. In military and sports, the effect of neglecting culture is immediate. Right? It's immediate, right? That you play on Saturday or Sunday, there's film to watch that the whole world, ABC, 5 million people are watching it. They're judging your performance in real time in the private sector, right, you can make a mistake, but the world is not going to find out about that from a year from now. Yes. So I think there's a different demand for urgency to get the people aspect, right, the culture aspect, right in military and sports because of that. That's just one of the examples. But when you ask what is at stake for neglecting culture, you know, I say very confidently and boldly fricking everything. Again, it's why, you know, what you don't want people hear about the cultural purpose statement. Well, Matt, you just said words don't build culture. They don't. And one of the very first things I do when you know, talking about that cultural purpose statement, is we don't do anything else for a good four or five, six months, because those leaders have to understand that just because we're working out a statement or mantra to define the culture of this organization, what frickin matters is what you do daily. You know, we we may be working on this now. But we have to create the mechanisms for us to live this out. And I think when you when you say that there's been a change, right, and, you know, what's been going on from the, you know, corporate America? I think what what so many Navy Seals and military leaders and sports leaders and coaches understand is that there's a balancing act. A lot of people and leaders in the business world think that I can't demand greatness for my people. We cannot have a culture of excellence, because we're going to be worried about stepping on people's toes or upsetting people, we got to make them happy 24/7 And quite frankly, I think that it is the exact opposite of a high performing culture, you know, because you can have a very demanding and excellent driven culture, while also still challenging people in a very servant healthy way.

Michael Sarraille 34:54

So this is where you mentioned it. This is where I consider that a culture of love in let me Dissector so, you know, I've had a lot of time to reflect since I've been out of the military. And I do realize now that some of the best leaders I worked for with operated out of love for their people, and they love their people a lot more than they hated the enemy or their competition. And it was a good friend of mine. He was a just devout Roman Catholic, he was a army tanker, went to Boston College, and he said he the highest form of compassion is accountability. And when he broke it down against leading people is no different than parenting. He said, If you see your son do something wrong, what do you do about it, I said, I take immediate action with professionalism, tact, help him explain from what he just did wrong, so that he learns and becomes a competent, good contributing member of society that can make decisions on his own or my daughter. Likewise, he said, That's accountability in the culture, the corporate sector as well. That's the highest form of compassion. Now, if you do with professionalism, tact, and they know you love them, and the reason you're holding them accountable, is because you never want to see them make that mistake again. Then you've created a culture of love, but what you know, accountability. It people can convoluted with confrontation, and we all know people will hide from confrontation. Where does accountability? I know accountability in the sports world, how have you, let me say this, have you crack that nut within the private sector, because if you do something on the field, I know your teammates gonna call you out right away. And they may do it with passion, and some people take that as a direct attack. But the private sector is is different. You do that you can shut somebody down. Have you? How have you seen accountability upheld in a very professional, tactful way in the private sector?

Matt Mayberry 36:41

Absolutely. You know, I think, again, this is this really comes over from a direct lesson I learned from the game of football. You know, I think that when you when you when you talking with leaders about driving accountability, holding people on their team accountable, you know, you first have to say, are you holding yourself accountable? And if you follow that leader around for 30 days, you know, you'll you'll start to realize that they're probably not holding themselves accountable, you know, and what the best football coaches do what Terry Heppner did so much of is that in front of the whole team, he would say, Guys, I messed up here, guys, I did this wrong, or guys, I want your feedback. How am I doing with this? How am I doing with you know, this team meeting like what what's resonating what's working? So he's entering into that, that situation, very vulnerable, and empathetic. And he's also saying that I'm the leader of this program, but I also don't have all the answers. And a lot of leaders in the in the private sectors, they believe that, you know, they have to be the smartest in the room, that they have to know all the answers, or at least have their people think that they look like they know that you have all the answers in the room. You know, and I think that that it really derails all their efforts, you know, but I think using Tom Allen as an example, who's right now the current Indiana University football coach, he was asked, Tom, what does what does Leo this Leo talk love each other? What the, what the heck does this have to do with football, a very violent sport. And he said, Because I love you so much, that I'm going to demand greatness out of you that I'm never ever going to let you be mediocre. Every single day of your life while you were in this program for the next four years. And I just stepped back and I was, you know, I thought about that, you know, because it's so true when you said like, accountability is compassion. I really believe that the problem with is with this though, Mike, and I'm sure you've seen this is that a lot of and again, coaches do the best of this. You can't hold someone accountable, until you first connect with them as a human being. Because if you try being too accountable, drive accountability, if you're too tough on them, if you're if you're coaching them in a particular way, and robbing them off in the wrong way, you know, it's not necessarily because you're accountable, or you're driving that tenaciousness or commitment to excellence. It's because they don't trust you yet. There's no connection. There's no deeper late layer of that engagement. And I think that's when I look back at the best football coaches I had. They were also some of the craziest, like, they were in my face every single day. They were in my ear, of course, you know, but what they did is I always knew what came from a place of love. I knew it came from a place of them wanting to see me succeed and gotten the field and have a great game. And I think that is the biggest drop off Mike is that a lot of leaders in the business world you know is that they don't understand that you have to love first and then be tough. Not this whole talk of tough love. Because if you're too tough without the love you're doomed you know so it's I think John Gordon you know, set it is you have to love first and then be tough.

Michael Sarraille 39:34

In you've heard this quote people don't care about how much you know until they know how much you care. And it is the truth. You've got to have love you got to show love. You've got to build relationships, absolutely. You can give feedback that will hit in resonate with, with people. So, you know, culture, we look at it from the sort of an aggregate view of the sum of all its parts. Talk to me about and I think you touched on it in the book how building a culture To where people can become the best version of themselves would lead to a better organization as a whole. You know, this part,

Matt Mayberry 40:09

I guess, if you if I was with you in person right now you'd see the the, you know, hair sticking up in my arms. Yeah, the reason why is because, you know, the best football programs again, making that distinction is that, you know, the goal is to win a Super Bowl, it's to the goal is to win a national championship, right? But we're also building young men. You know, we're we're building young men for the game of life. And I think that, you know, when I had that interaction with Terry Hebner, I didn't know what at the time back then. But that's why that that meeting resonated so deeply and profoundly with me is because, you know, it was just that moment. And when I look at now, you know, the best organizations, what the best leaders do differently than everyone else, and I've seen this front row is that they use their business to build people not use their people to build their business. And there's a very big difference for that, right. Because the average companies who have retention problems, they can't attract top talent. They're notorious for just utilizing their people, putting them in roles, and then using those people, overworking them, underpaying them not training and developing them to build the business. And then they wonder why at the end of the year, they have retention problems, and they're all leaving, but the best organizations, they win in the marketplace, but they also utilize their business as a mechanism to grow and develop their people. You know, and how I look at that, as we started this conversation with this talk of culture is it's really behavior at scale, it's behavior, turning values in a specific concrete behaviors day in and day out. And also, it's, it's also applies to winning in the marketplace and building people. It's about what are we doing daily day in and day out. And I think that it directly plays into building people, right, because you can teach people the specifics of a job or a role. You know, but at the end of the day, what you really need to get specific about is what are the behaviors and characteristics that we're truly looking for at the core of our organization that's going to help us carry out the mission of this organization, and when also in the marketplace. You know, so that's really what, you know, when I go in, and you probably do the same work, Mike is, you know, we want to win, you know, we want to increase the gross profit percentage by 25%. We want to do what you want to do from a business standpoint, but we also want to grow and develop men and women in this organization, because that directly impacts the business.

Michael Sarraille 42:21

Now, here's the reality. And I know you've seen this is it cultures aren't built overnight. Cultures are built over years, if not decades, late, let me tell you a quick one. Because you know, this, this analogy will sit with you. But I had a mentor. He actually was a brigadier general, at West Point. But Howard prince, he was wounded in Vietnam. Third time was the most dramatic mortar hitting his leg. And so he went on a professional track and becoming a professor. He got his, his doctorate in, in industrial psychology, organizational psychology, but he talked about the army in the army. You know, when I've talked to companies, I say to two organizations have really written the manual on leadership. And no, it's not the Navy SEALs, the Navy SEALs plagiarized their leadership manual from these two, it's the Marine Corps in the army. And these organizations have been around for a very long time since the inception of our history. And they're great organizations are great manuals. But he talked about when the army switched from a all volunteer force, I'm sorry, all drafty or draftee force, post Vietnam to an all volunteer force post Vietnam. He said the army, an organization that prided themselves on leadership had to relearn how to lead. Because how they dealt with the draft D, somebody who was forced to go into the military wasn't resonating with somebody who raised their hand said I proudly and willingly want to go into the military. And they were suffering from attrition. So if an organization that had at that point was over 200 years old, had, you know, who written a manual 200 years old had to relearn over a decade, then think about what it takes for the for the private sector, and it is a very large organization. But how often do you see a leader who gets terminated too quickly? I eat like a football coach, who is making headway of changing the culture of a program. But it's just it's too too long of a road. Yeah, they may have may have gone from a one in eight record to a five and five record. But they're terminated too early, because they just weren't given time to build that culture. Is that a common thing you see in football as well as the private sector?

Matt Mayberry 44:37

It is, you know, I would say that it probably was more common 10 years ago, I think now you're starting to see a lot of athletic directors and even board members in the business world, you know, have a much more clear understanding of you know, what does success look like for us, right? So even if, you know we were in turmoil three years ago, when we go from winning one game to five games, nowadays, that coach may have a little bit more, you know, leeway there is far He's continuing to build a program. But absolutely, I've seen that play out in real time. And I think that it was more relevant, though 10 years ago, but you still see it today. And I think a lot of times, it's very unfortunate. But I will also say that I think nine times out of 10, maybe eight out of 10 times, you know, there's probably a good argument for why that coach is being fired. You very rarely, as a coach gonna get fired, even if they're losing. Obviously, if you're losing two games, you know, three games, four games, you know, for three, four or five years, and you're at, you know, let's say Texas, right, you're gonna get fired. It's reality of it. But if you're, if you're slowly, incrementally getting better, and the players love you, and you have a great track record of connecting with people and doing what you got to do, I think you'll find that very, you know, less likely nowadays than you did 10 years ago.

Michael Sarraille 45:46

I've got a good friend, Tom Herman, who got fired as the UT football coach with an eight three record and took the team to three consecutive bowls. Sometimes those programs they're involved, Tom is doing fine. These now I think, what do you just take Florida Atlantic University, and I have no doubt, he will set a course that will turn that around. I want to lay a hook for people, and I don't want to necessarily give him the answers. Because of course, hey, what you hear on the podcast is not going to set you up for success. You need to go by the book, you need to go in detail, you need to get a highlighter, and truly reflect on what's been written. But you talked about the five common roadblocks that prevent leaders from using culture to get the best from their people, and how to overcome them. I don't want to necessarily how to, to overcome them. But some leaders, the problems are staring them right in the face these these roadblocks help identify it for those leaders that may be listening. They're like, Yep, I've got a culture problem. What are those five obstacles?

Matt Mayberry 46:43

You know, without giving away too much, you know, I'll start with, you know, look in the mirror. You know, that number one, there is lukewarm leadership buy in. And the reason why I use the term lukewarm is because, you know, it could have just been lack of leadership, if you know, well, I want to try to get a little bit more specific and go with lukewarm, because what you will find is that you'll have a lot of leaders with one foot in one foot out, you know, you'll have some leaders who, you know, for the two months, they're completely committed. But then, you know, when when some distraction and complexity arises in the business, they're completely, you know, reverse engineering, going back to how they were five years ago, you know, so the number one thing, you know, is that the leadership team cohesively as a unit, as a team, that top team, the senior leadership team has to understand that one leader can't make a team, but one toxic leader who's not committed can certainly break and dismantle a team. You know, it's number one, I'm sure it's the work that you do. I know, when I go into organizations even afford changing culture, or writing out a cultural transformation, that's going to be for the next 12 to 24 months, the very first thing that we do for the next six months is drive top team engagement. All the all the time is spent there. I mean, it's driving pap team engagement, it's, it's doing team building exercises, it's getting clear on what we stand for, as an organization, you know, you know, where the problems were the dysfunctions, you know, airing it all out there. You know, because if the leadership team is not leading the charge, as we already said, at the beginning of this podcast, you're doomed. You know, you're done. And I think a lot of leaders, they still don't get that, you know, they could think that, you know, hey, if we have 20 people, let's say on our top team, and we have 18, people who are completely committed, but two people are just, you know, they're in and out, they're not fully there. To me, that's still a big major problem. It's a massive flaw. And I think that, you know, so you got to look in the mirror, and you got to start there. Number one, you're trying to build culture, you know, the second area I'd like to highlight is, you know, distortion and distraction. You know, what I mean by that is a lot of leaders, they'll read a book, you know, and which I think is great, you should read and learn as much as you possibly can, they'll read an article on HBr, they'll hear about a best practice of what Microsoft or Apple is doing. And then they'll think exactly those same best practices are going to work in their organization. And I always say this, there is not one and tried to answer to build culture. And I wrote a book on it entire book on it, you know, and I deeply believe that there is not one program, there is not one system that is 100% Tried and true for every organization in America. Why is that? Because every organization has its own unique needs, and specific tailored mechanisms that have to be derived and really transferred and cascaded throughout that organization, for that specific organization and that market with where they are in their current reality. And so distortion and distraction is a major roadblock because, you know, you'll have, you know, I read this article, now we're doing this and we're doing this and we're gonna change this and so then you're just running around doing 2555 things at one given time. You know, so that's a huge one. You know, the third one, you know, that I would like to highlight because I think it's very important without giving too much away is the lack of ability to cascade change, the lack of ability to cascade impact and influence and what I mean by this is, you know, a lot of companies don't they'll get some traction with the top team, everybody will feel good with work, you know where we are from a defined culture. But then when you look at, especially if you let's say, you know, an organization that has maybe 10,000 or 19,000 employees, 200,000 employees, you're talking a different ballgame. I mean, you have to be obsessed with making sure that that impact and influence and momentum and energy transfers all throughout your organization. And that takes a long time. You know, I think a lot of leaders think that this can be done in a six month journey or four month journey, you're mistaking yourself, I mean, it's a daily grind and focus, but it pays off the pace. That is extraordinary.

Michael Sarraille 50:37

I think you may be saying that with large organizations, yeah, if you've got a team of three, if you're pouring in for six months, you may be able to change the culture of that that small four person team, right. But for most of the small to mid size, even corporate, you know, you're talking a decade long fight. But yeah, that's, that's absolutely. For a lot of leaders to accept, sorry. I mean, I disrupt you.

Matt Mayberry 50:58

I mean, you know, even with, even with smaller, you know, small businesses, though, you know, even though I do most of my work in large entities, you know, you still see that same challenge with with small businesses that may have 14 members, you know, we did culture work for six months, now, we're done. Oh, is it ingrained in you? You know, one of the best ways I like to say, you know, define culture, you know, is, what are the behaviors? How do people act? How do people talk? And how do people define your organization when the CEO is not in the room? And to me, you know, someone presented that to me, and I was just so you know, so dumbfounded, almost, you know, because I think about that, I'm like, man, it speaks volumes to truly where we want to get to, you know, it speaks volumes to where we have to ship, the organization, the mindsets and the behaviors of everybody in here, of truly, you know, what are we doing behind closed doors when no one's watching?

Michael Sarraille 51:51

That is what your culture is in Funny enough, I pull my slides up. Culture is not when the CEO is in the room. It's what your people do when he's not. And that is so key, you know, one of the things I will give the counterterrorism community in which which is our top performers, it seemed like culture was baked into every discussion, is this in accordance with our values, the behaviors we hold, dear, if it's not, we better rethink it. And if it's not, we better be able to justify why we're deviating from what may be seemed like our culture.

Matt Mayberry 52:25

Right? Yeah. And I think that, you know, that's, it's a great, it leads me to my other segment, you know, as far as you have to understand a what, what is culture for, right? So you got to remove the negative misconceptions. And then this can start when you're doing that work with that top team and that leadership team, you know, but but this even transfers over because what will happen is, you may have, let's say, three or 4567 workshops, where you're defining culture, and you're talking about that. But the real issue is, when you go back out in the real world, you're in a heated meeting with a customer supplier, and then you revert back to your old tendencies and habits, right? So we have to get to a point where we're in graining behavior, it's becoming second nature in your organization. But that leads me right into my point of, after you understand of what culture is what me and you, you know, defined it on here in this podcast, its behavior at scale, or, you know, its behavior. however you define that right? You have to understand the sole mechanism of a culture is yes to make people feel that they're fulfilled, and they enjoy coming to work every single day. But it's also to carry out the mission and execution of the strategy of the organization. Culture point blank is not to make everybody happy. As a matter of fact, that great culture pisses some people off. You know, it pisses some people off. But culture sole job is to help that organization, win in the marketplace, execute the strategy, and develop and grow with people. And a lot of leaders make that they make the confusion of culture is separate from strategy. And so Peter Drucker's quote, I've even in the book, one of the things that I've done is, I didn't go ahead and dismantle it for so many years. And like, you know, my speeches, I would say, I would say, culture eats strategy for breakfast, lunch and dinner. But what I started to realize during a lot of this work, Mike, you know, the past 11 years is I realized that the more I say that the more confuses leaders. And if I just work on culture, if I just focus on culture, everything No, it's simultaneously you have to have that balancing act, we got to have a great strategy. But then we also got to connect with the daily behaviors in our culture, that's going to help be the driving mechanism for us to carry out our strategy. You have to get very clear with that, like strategy and culture got to be connected. It's got to be cultural work, then it's got to be grown. It's got to be cultivated every single day. Like you said, every meeting, everything that you're doing culture has got to be integrated. It's got to be implemented into every function of your business.

Michael Sarraille 54:53

Amazing. Matt, you know this deal with did you do an audio book on this? Ah, This book,

Matt Mayberry 55:02

the audio book comes out I think, actually, February 27, maybe it's February 27, I believe

Michael Sarraille 55:10

in for listeners for books that's common is you release the paperback and hardback. And usually the audio book comes back later. It's obscene how long? I will preface it

Matt Mayberry 55:19

by saying I'm not the one. I'm not the one reading it though, you know, you know, that's a whole separate conversation. Sorry, we won't get into here. But, you know, it's funny, because I'm against authors who don't read their own audiobooks. And here I am not doing it.

Michael Sarraille 55:33

Was it? Was it a time time issue?

Matt Mayberry 55:36

It was time, you know, from when the publisher wanted, wanted to get it done. And they might count, you know, long story short, lack of communication up front and just didn't get around to it.

Michael Sarraille 55:46

I'm with you. I released the everyday warrior in January. The audio book doesn't come out until March because I couldn't get to the the funny thing too. Did you? Did you read your book first book? Or Did somebody did you have a reader?

Matt Mayberry 55:59

I did. I did. You know, I read the first book.

Michael Sarraille 56:03

It's amazing. Like, I remember the first warning I got was like, Hey, be prepared. It's, you know, you're gonna get tired and like, I'm a retired Navy Seal, I'm fine. And after two days in the studio, I was smoked, I started slurring, I'm like, What the hell is going on here? It's an interesting process for those that have never done it. Know. So, guys, here's what I'm gonna tell you again, we dropped the links for all the books. And there's a reason we bring on thought leaders. And that clearly is a thought leader. Culture is the way this is long overdue. You know, everyone wants to build an organization for speed, impact and excellence. leaders at every level, as Matt is, is advocating here. Matt, reading the book is one thing. But I know there's a lot of companies that are going to want to bring you in, where can people these companies that find you on the consulting side of what you do

Matt Mayberry 56:54

your primary website, which is Matt Mayberry online.com. That's probably the best place to connect with me. I'm on all social media platforms as well. But probably the website, Matt Mayberry online.com. We will

Michael Sarraille 57:04

drop that as well, Matt, I cannot thank you enough for joining us. I just got the books yesterday. So I haven't totally dug in. But I can assure you, given my passion for culture, I'm going to learn a lot from this book, clearly, what you just stated, has made me rethink some of the ways that I teach. So from me and from all the listeners, thank you.

Matt Mayberry 57:26

Thank you so much for having me, Mike. And I sincerely mean this by you know, keep doing the phenomenal work you're doing. You're changing lives. And from afar. I've been, you know, rooting for you for a long time. So I absolutely love the work. You're doing the difference you're making. Thanks for having me, buddy.

Michael Sarraille 57:37

I appreciate that. And again, also, Matt and I ended up on the list from global gurus for top speakers. I came in at 29 out of 30. Matt was much higher ranked. So if you're listening, you know who to contact to bring in and speak to I don't think

Matt Mayberry 57:52

so. It's maximum. I think I was 28 or 27 or something healthy. I think we're like

Michael Sarraille 58:00

I've got my lunch.

Matt Mayberry 58:01

I think you're you're being too nice. You're being too generous. I think I'm 27 I think I might be like one or something ahead of you.

Michael Sarraille 58:08

Okay, well, guys, go check him out: mattmayberryonline.com. Go purchase his book. We'll drop the links. Matt. Have a good one. And for everyone. This is the Men's Journal Everyday Warrior. I'm your host Mike Sarraille. Thank you, and we'll see you next time.

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